Quantified Self San Diego: Sleep Exploration Group

About

We are involved in the San Diego Quantified Self, we are interested in sleep, and we are incubating sleep experiments and studies to run. We collaborate about that, and more, right here.

Discussion

JxA

JxA FYI - This group was created for a Quantified Self San Diego Zeo Experience which ended early 2012 with a Meetup Group. Thus there probably will not be much activity in this group. Thank you, John Amschler QS San Diego Organizer

mrboodaddy

mrboodaddy joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “Have sleep apnea, and feel like I never get a sleep where i wake up fully rested :(. This is something I am really wanting to find more information about and take control over and fix. Am working with a Zeo now to track sleep patterns and have some other data collected as well, but am just now getting into the process of analyzing the data”

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skjonas

skjonas How well does the Zeo work for capturing the frequent awakenings that usually occur with sleep apnea?

JxA

JxA @skjonas - it is hard to say, but I can give you some background. Zeo measures sleep based on brain wave frequency. This means if you are 'alert' and your brain waves are still in the light sleep realm, a moment that you consider awake may not be recorded as such. For instance: There are times when I wake up and am tossing & turning and Zeo doesn't show awake. I also wear a BodyMedia which uses actigraphy (accelerometer data) as part of the sleep algorithm. I believe the combination of the brain waves and Actigraphy will give you the most reliable awakenings that match your perceived awakenings.

JxA

JxA @skjonas - it is hard to say, but I can give you some background. Zeo measures sleep based on brain wave frequency. This means if you are 'alert' and your brain waves are still in the light sleep realm, a moment that you consider awake may not be recorded as such. For instance: There are times when I wake up and am tossing & turning and Zeo doesn't show awake. I also wear a BodyMedia which uses actigraphy (accelerometer data) as part of the sleep algorithm. I believe the combination of the brain waves and Actigraphy will give you the most reliable awakenings that match your perceived awakenings.

ccwgoh

ccwgoh joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “Im working at the Sleep and Neuroimaging lab in UC Berkeley. Sleep data plays a central role in my life. ”

dsm

dsm joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “Zeo user... interested in diversity of sleep architecture in "normals" of various ages, both genders. Also, in unanticipated effects of common meds.”

Kimwhit

Kimwhit joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “interested in sleep deprivation and impacts on cognitive and other functions, using ZEO, Live in SD, follow QS, also have 23andme and PGen results”

JxA

JxA Hi Kim!

JxA

JxA Hi Kim! We were using this site to initiate conversation while we used the Zeo monitors for 2 months leading up to one of our meetups; since then there has not been much activity in this group. See you soon.

LunaLagoon

LunaLagoon joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “just want to track genomes and QS stuff in general... particularly interested in polyphasic sleeping (napping) and creativity.”

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EriGentry

EriGentry I know skjonas (at least) has tried polyphasic sleeping. Maybe he can comment on its effect on creativity. Definitely curious.

JxA

JxA LunaLagoon - Have you Read Sarah Mednick's book - take a nap, change your life? ( http://www.amazon.com/Take-Nap-Change-Your-Life/dp/0761142908 ). She mentions that there are optimum times during the day to take a nap for better creativity and other times which are better to nap to increase your analytical skills such as math, science, etc. Hope this helps!

skjonas

skjonas My attempt at polyphasic didn't do much for my creativity, except in the sense that I become creative in findings ways to wake myself up (ammonia capsules) and places to nap (server closet). However, since I didn't adapt to the schedule, I wasn't able to see what it's like to be fully awake for 21 hours a day and what I could accomplish creatively (which was a big draw of the schedule). Instead, I found out that I make a lot of subpar jokes when I'm tired.

Ripplestone

8 Zeo Sleep Graphs Showing the Effect of Galantamine on REM sleep

Bulb Media / YouCanLucidDream.com Blog · posted by Ripplestone
Ripplestone

Ripplestone joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “I'm here to learn more about sleep and dreaming. I am particularly interested in the effects of taking different supplements on the REM and Deep sleep. ”

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JxA

JxA Which supplements are you interested in? here is a link to a question on Vitamin D timing http://blog.sethroberts.net/2011/11/02/it-matters-when-you-take-vitamin-d-a-stunning-discovery/

wellthcare

wellthcare It is interesting how vitamin delivery is treated so nonchalantly. We know from pharmaceuticals that the dose, formulation, timing of intake is critical. Why would we expect it to be different for supplements?

Ripplestone

Ripplestone Yes supplemental like Vitamin D, B, C. Also other things like Kava, 5 htp, Ginkgo biloba, mugwart. I've studied a lot about which supplements that are know to cause vivid (sometimes Lucid) dreams, but I'm curious to try new things. There is plenty of things on the drug store shelves that i'm curious about how it effects sleep. Memory enhancing supplements sound promising for better dream recall. If they cause more vivid REM sleep, then they can be taken at 5am, after getting all the Deep Sleep out of the way. Supplements that cause more Deep Sleep can be very useful if taken at the beginning of the night, because after it wears off, then the body will usually go into REM rebound, and get Extra REM sleep to balance it out. That's great for vivid dreams. But, like you said, it's all about timing, and knowing if the supplement wakes you up, or puts you into a deep sleep. The ZEO is greAt for figuring that out! So i'm stoked.

Ripplestone

Ripplestone I completed an experiment on the effects of Galantamine memory enhancing supplement on REM sleep and dreams. I presented this data to the San Diego Quantified Self Meeting on Tuesday. It was an 8 night study done in January. 4 nights of waking up at 5:30am and then going back to sleep. and 4 nights of waking up at 5:30 am, taking galantamine, then going back to sleep. I had 2 Lucid Dreams otu of the 4 Galantamine nights. There is very clear evidence from the graphs, that Galantamine causes you to go directly into REM sleep upon going to sleep, while nights I did not take Galantamine, I went directly into light sleep, and had REM about 20 minutes later. Here is a link to my blog post about it and my 8 graphs: http://www.youcanluciddream.com/lucid-dreaming/239/zeo-sleep-graphs-with-galantamine

Ripplestone

Ripplestone I will be taking Kava Kava the next few night to see how it effects my sleep (and dreams). I'll present what i find out at the meeting on Tuesday 17th.

Ripplestone

Ripplestone So far data inconclusive. Drank large amounts of Kava on 4 nights, each night had a different variable, and the sleep graph didn't have anything interesting to show for it. So far I learned that it takes a lot of discipline, and organization to do a good sleep study, and eliminate variables such as getting up early, and not taking other supplements, drugs, or drinking alcohol. I will re-approach this experiment again in the future when I am up for it.

EriGentry

Is there a San Diego "Science of Sleep" meetup slated?

posted by EriGentry
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JxA

JxA We're working on finalizing the date right now - it will probably be the first half of January.

JxA

JxA Eri - We're having our Sleep Experience Meetup on January 10th down here in San Diego at West Wireless. Will you be joining us?

EriGentry

EriGentry Tempted! Let me see if I can borrow the company jet.

JxA

JxA Hery Eri - We're onhold for the meetup on the 10th pending a location - I'll let you know when we have it locked down! Happy New Year!

gbiggers

gbiggers You may also now attach an image to a post. Great for sharing sleep graphs, illustrations, visualizations, pictures of interesting products, etc. @JxA, thank you for pushing us to add this feature. Currently you may attach an image using the general 'Add Post' action. Would you find it useful to also attach images to Questions and Articles?

gbiggers

gbiggers You can now post general thoughts and comments in additional to articles and questions. When we started the Groups here, we wanted to help steer the conversation via structured items like articles and questions. That has been working, but many people asked for the ability to just post anything related to the group. So here you go. A third button, for posting 'whatever,' as long as it is related to our topic. Post away!!

eramirez

So I'm interested in looking into the how to flight the snooze button. I tend to set my alarm and then hit the snooze button for 15-45min each morning until I actually drag myself out of bed. Has anyone else used Zeo data or tools to help them fight "snooze button syndrome" or looked into their data to better understand its effects?

posted by eramirez
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joonspoon

joonspoon have you been using the SmartWake feature? it's supposed to help you find your most natual waking point.

JxA

JxA I have not yet found a way to fight the dreaded snooze button... luckily I don't have to wake up at any specific time ;) Have you been using the Zeo online tracking feature to track how you feel when you wake up? If so we might be able to track down some patterns!

skjonas

skjonas I've found that even when I sleep well (100+ on the Zeo), I don't wake up punching the air, ready to tackle the day. And most people have difficulty getting going in the morning, which is why they are reliant on their morning cup of coffee. My problem is that's too late for me. I can't even get up to make the coffee. Instead, I keep a bottle of generic caffeine pills next to my bed and a pill splitter. I split the pill into quarter pieces upon waking. A quarter piece is 50mg, about half a cup of coffee. Granted, I still wait about 15 min. before it kicks in, but at the point getting up is effortless. I found that this alone gets me through the entire morning, so it cuts down on my caffeine consumption overall. There's also the Steve Pavlina method of practicing to get up when the alarm goes off. It sounds silly, but it's worked for me in the past: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/04/how-to-get-up-right-away-when-your-alarm-goes-off/

JxA

JxA I like Steve Method- Thanks for sharing! I find I get up based on how tempting it is to stay in bed (think girlfriend) vs how exciting my day is going to be out of bed.

JxA

JxA Ernesto did you figure out a way to solve your snooze syndrome?

eramirez

eramirez Yeah - I am actually just more motivated to get stuff done now and that has helped a lot. Nothing too scientific unfortunately.

JxA

JxA Ernesto - I believe that internal motivation is the ultimate method! I'm hoping many people find QS information useful to spark individual methods to motivation.

nagle

nagle joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “John invited me! I organize the Quantified Self in Boston, and there ran a meetup -- http://quantifiedself.com/2011/04/quantified-self-boston-meetup-5-the-science-of-sleep-recap/ -- where people experimented with Zeos. I am curious to see what develops here.”

joonspoon

what sort of sleep patterns is anyone else out there noticing? i'm surprised to find that i wake up 5-7 times per night. anyone else having the same experience?

posted by joonspoon
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jayk

jayk I find it interesting that I can get up to go to the bathroom and it tells me that I had not no wake time and zero times woken. I must be sleep walking my way to and from the bathroom. I have been getting pretty consistent sleep patterns when I have it on all night. It took me a little while to get the adjustment right. My ZQ sores range from 81 to 95 so far. I would like to see if I can do some things to get my deep sleep time over an hour. I am currently getting about 55minutes a night.

JxA

JxA Joon - When you wake up, how long are you awake? Five minutes or longer? Waking up is normal... Here is one article with a video that says you may wake up to 70 times per night: http://blog.myzeo.com/whats-the-deal-with-wake/ I often 'wake up' at night but it doesn't register on the device; i view this as normal and not a problem with the device but rather the way zeo does the measurement averaging. Details here: http://blog.myzeo.com/how-does-zeo-score-sleep-stages-less-than-2-minutes-long/ Here is another post about awakenings: http://blog.myzeo.com/is-it-possible-to-have-more-awakenings-that-you-remember/ As a side note Sleep State is defined by brain frequency rather than experience. Frequency here: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sleep#NREM_sleep

skjonas

skjonas Is there a pattern to when you wake up? Is it right after deep sleep or REM sleep, for instance?

joonspoon

i've found starting with the zeo to be a learning process... haven't managed to get 100% complete data every night yet. wondering if anyone else is having the same problem, and how you've managed to fix it.

posted by joonspoon
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jayk

jayk I have found it a little challenging to get used to sleeping with it. I have had a couple of nights that I took it off half way through the night. I am hoping that I will get used to it so that I can experiment with some things that I want to try.

eramirez

eramirez When I first started out it was hard to find that right level of comfort and tightness so that the strap stayed on, but it wasn't annoying. I just tried different settings until I found something that worked for me.

joonspoon

joonspoon i pretty much have it down now. it definitely takes a few adjustments of strap tightness, and the position of the strap on the back of your head to make sure it doesn't fall off. now i don't even notice that i'm wearing it.

JxA

JxA @Joonspoon - I'm glad you figured it out! The tension of the headband definitely helps and soon people can get to the point where it is second nature!

jmcinerney6

jmcinerney6 Been using Zeo fairly consistently the last 10 days or so. It pretty much hits the sleep start and end. I too wake up often. It says I only get about 2% of deep sleep a night, which seems a bit surprising to me.

JxA

JxA 2% - How do you feel? Is this for both days that you exercise and days that you don't?

jmcinerney6

jmcinerney6 I usually have an hour of brisk walking per day. I rarely miss. So, you would expect more deep sleep if I say, double the workout?

JxA

JxA I don't have enough samples to know how far out of the norm you are, so I don't really expect anything in particular... but I'm curious to know if doubling your workout will change that!

JxA

Zeo Blog with links on how Daylight savings time impacts our sleep patterns for a few days

Make sure to use your Zeos over the next couple days... it'll be interesting to see how this data differs from the rest · posted by JxA
jayk

jayk joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “Having severely depleted myself through drug abuse, stress and night shift work (I no longer participate in any of these lol) sleep is very high on my list of priorities. I am looking to learn how I currently sleep (from a ZEO perspective) and what I can do to get the best possible sleep for me.”

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JxA

JxA Hey Jay! This is John - the QS San Diego Organizer - could you share some links to the Grounding sheets you use? I'm sure people would be interested in the info! Plus there's another study on here related to earthing mats: http://genomera.com/studies/reducing-jet-lag-with-earthing-mats Thanks!

jayk

jayk Thanks John. I posted in the other study before coming here (when I first logged in and saw earthing I had to check it out). I would love to see some before and after reports from our ZEO participants who are not earthing but would like to try it. I wont live without earthing. It has made a huge difference in my life. I highly recommend getting a copy of the book and learning for yourself. It is fascinating. http://www.earthing.com/ http://www.earthinginstitute.net/ They are located in Palm Springs. I would be happy to share all that I know about it with anyone who is interested.

JxA

JxA Check out David Asprey's blog post on grounding with Zeo Data http://www.bulletproofexec.com/earthing/

wellthcare

wellthcare joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “Sleep is one of the pillars of being healthy. In addition, it is well known that it plays a significant role in many diseases. I am interested in hearing different perspectives.”

JxA

JxA I believe you'll hear many different things here!

jmcinerney6

jmcinerney6 joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “Got a pointer from San Diego Quantified Self folks.”

JxA

JxA Welcome John... Let's see what we can learn!

visionwind

visionwind joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “The Zeo sleep trial, I hope to discover ways to sleep better based on my sleep patterns.”

Alex_C

Alex_C joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “I'd like to find out how to sleep BETTER without sleeping LONGER. I'm also interested in learning how to help my wife with her chronic sleep problems.”

JxA

JxA Looks like you and timafield have the same goal...

EriGentry

EriGentry joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “I'm here for a few reasons. 1. I want to know how John manages to do so many awesome things 2. I want to see how San Diego rocks sleep 3. I want to help my SD friends so they'll let me stay with them when I visit :) I want to learn how 16 different sleep studies can happen all at once!”

JxA

JxA Hi Eri :) You can crash at my place any time you're down here... but I warn you - I just moved in and my living room is a gym rather than a relaxing place to chill... I use the beach for that part of my life ;)

timafield

timafield joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “I want find out how I should sleep. Currently I sleep to much and am rested too little.”

timafield

timafield I want to* - proves I won't be contributing to this group intellectually.

JxA

JxA Better Sleep will probably fix those typos ;) I think you'll learn a bunch over the next two months with a zeo - feel free to write a blog and Zeo may post it!

bstaver

bstaver joined and answered the questions: What brings you here? What do you hope to discover? “To learn how to sleep more soundly. Also interested in pairing the zeo with a noise recording device to learn if nearby train wakes me without becoming fully conscience of the disturbance and if likelihood of waking varies with stage of sleep cycle.”

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gbiggers

gbiggers LOVE this idea. Adding another measure (in this case, ambient/environmental noise) along with Zeo during the sleep duration.

jwelgan

jwelgan I'm in. Trains pass right by my apartment at all hours of the day. While sleeping they are more common in the second half, not first.

JxA

JxA I like the idea of coordinating noise with sleep/wake - do we have any programmers in the board who would be willing to help with this? Here is a website which was created/sanctioned by Zeo and will get us started collecting the zeo data to a computer: http://zeorawdata.sourceforge.net/ All we need is a microphone recording at the same time and marking volume to understand more!

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